062: Unpacking Our Church Camp Baggage with Cara Meredith

What happens at church camp? And what happens when what happens at church camp doesn't stay there, but follows us for the rest of our lives?

Most people think of campfires, silly songs, skits, deep talks, and spiritual awakenings. But for many, this is also a place mixed with emotional manipulation, toxic theology, purity culture, exclusion, and abuse.

In this episode, I speak with Cara Meredith, author of Church Camp: Bad Skits, Cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation, about the “both/and” nature of church camps. She unpacks the tactics and theology used for "greater conversion" and other religious baggage people carry from their time at camp. We conclude the conversation by reimagining a camp experience centered on a theology of belovedness, not wickedness—a culture that benefits everyone.

Guest Spotlight ✨

A sought-after speaker, writer, and public theologian, Cara Meredith is the author of Church Camp and The Color of Life. Passionate about issues of justice, race, and privilege, Cara holds a master of theology from Fuller Seminary and is a postulant for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church.

With a background in education and nonprofit work, she wears more hats than she probably ought, but mostly just enjoys playing with words, a lot. Her writing has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, The New York Times, The Living Church, The Christian Century, and Baptist News Global, among others. She lives with her family in Oakland, California.

Website | Instagram | Threads | Substack

Links & Resources 🔗

• Episode 16: Christian Nationalism and Finding Hope in the Margins with Andrew Whitehead

• Substack: A Hierarchy of Belovedness

Episode Transcript 📄

Cara Meredith
What I would say is simply say, you are beloved. You, beloved matter. I mean, it would mean it would be a message of belovedness over and over again. Why not unpack that for seven days? Why not let one's identity come into play within that belovedness? Because our identity is an intrinsic part of who we are and of what God loves best about us. And out of that belovedness, we have belonging.

Brian Lee
Hey, friends. Welcome back to the Broken to Beloved podcast. If you're looking for practical resources for recovery from and safeguarding against spiritual abuse, then this is the place for you. I'm your host, Brian Lee. As an ordained pastor and spiritual abuse survivor, I know what it feels like navigating life after spiritual abuse. I also know what it's like to want to prevent anything from happening to the people you know and love. It's why Broken to Beloved exists. And we can't do this work alone. We need your help. Support us by becoming a donor to help make our podcast and programs possible. Just head to brokentobeloved.org/support or click the link to donate in the show notes.

Today we're talking about church camp culture and the tension between all the good and bad that comes with it. A sought after speaker, writer and public theologian, Cara Meredith is the author of Church Camp and The Color of Life. Passionate about issues of justice, race and privilege, Cara holds a Master of Theology from Fuller Seminary and is a postulant for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church. With a background in education and nonprofit work, she wears more hats than she probably ought, but mostly just enjoys playing with words a lot. Her writing has been featured in national media outlets such as the Oregonian, New York Times, the Living Church, the Christian Century, and Baptist News Global, among others. She lives with her family in Oakland, California.

And now here's my conversation with our new friend Cara. Cara, welcome to the podcast.

Cara Meredith
Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lee
How has reception been to the book?

Cara Meredith
It's been good. It's been surprisingly good, I think. I've. I keep waiting for the ball to drop, I think is the phrase. I keep waiting for the theobros to come at me, as they say on the Internet. But that has not happened, I think, because perhaps because the subtitle is a little hard hitting, I think that it is naturally keeping some initial readers away who might benefit from reading it. So for the most part it's been a pretty warm reception.

Brian Lee
Good, I'm glad. Well, and I love what you write right up front. In the prolog you say, I critique that place called camp because I love that place called Camp. And then you quote Dr. King and saying, "I criticize America because I love her. I want her to stand as a moral example to the world." I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I'm seeing lots of other people write and talk about it as well. Why was now the time to write it for you?

Cara Meredith
Yeah, well, I, I indeed I am so grateful for Dr. King. James Baldwin, as you know, also said something very similar. So for me there, this was not the book that I set out to write, but it was the book that happened. And I think it was as far as why a book about church camp. Really, the book started with a search for the both and it started with the search, in my own life of an example in a time and place that held the tension of paradox, that held the tension of the both end and in which two opposite things were true. And so that was the book that I was originally trying to write. And from that though, that's where, that's where church camp came out. Where or just came to me, where it was one of those that I love this place called camp. And I see harm that is happening in this place called camp. I want better for her. So that was part of how and where it came from. And it just so happened to come out now, 2025, the year of our Lord.

Brian Lee
So yeah, well. And so for those who are unfamiliar with the book, and we want everyone to go get it, give us the short version of your experience because you've got lots of experience both going to and working at camps. So give us the short version of that experience and how that led to where you are today.

Cara Meredith
Yeah, the short version is that I started going to camp in 1988 as a nine year old. You can do the math. And I just stayed for another 30 years. So I stayed not as a camper. I was a camper for a good number of years, but eventually was a volunteer, a summer staffer holding a number of different jobs from lifeguard to ropes corporate course to program to counselor to head leader. And then after I graduated from college, because a lot of those were, you know, 18 to 22 year old jobs, then I was invited to become a camp speaker. And that was how I spent my summers. When I had grown up jobs, so to speak, I spent my summers at camp as a camp speaker, really for, for the next 15 years. That was primarily how I filled my summers, how I occasionally filled weekends during the year. So that is my camp experience is that I was never full time at a camp, but I found a home in and at camps for nearly 30 years.

Brian Lee
Yeah. And I'm guessing a wide variety of camps as a speaker.

Cara Meredith
A thousand percent. Yes, if a thousand percent can be a percent. So I grew up in the American Baptist denomination and then quickly found a home in a parachurch organization called Young Life. So I spent a lot of time with an in and at Young Life Camps along with other parachurch organizations. But they, but then it was also in other denominational and non denominational camps, speaking at camps through the Covenant, speaking at non denominational camps like Mount Hermon, which is a big camp here in California. So it was one of those that, as I started speaking in one place, those camps that still fell under the evangelical umbrella, and really the white evangelical umbrella, if we want to define it as such, that were progressive enough to allow a woman to speak, allowed me to speak and, or invited me to speak. And that was, that was how I found myself speaking. Speaking to thousands of kids over the years.

Brian Lee
Yeah, amazing. And I definitely want to talk about the being a woman speaker at camp. Before we get there, though. I appreciate the breakdown of chapters that correlate to the different nights of camp, the themes that you would tackle. And for those who may not have had a camp experience, poor them. And also maybe yay for them, depending on the experience, or those who may have had a different experience. Because I also recognize, because I also sort of worked at a couple of camps I don't exactly remember. I think my first camps were probably high school, maybe have been middle school, and also extremely formative years slash summers or just one week or whatever it is. And I recognize how completely different camps may be formatted based on denomination or non denomination or background, whatever it is. Could you break down what those different nights were kind of like or how a week, a typical week at camp would go?

Cara Meredith
Yeah, so this was part of, the fascinating part of it. I went in with a hunch thinking, you know, I. At all of these different camps that I spoke at, there was oftentimes a similar progression that happened. And it may not have followed this exact progression. But the reality is that within evangelicalism, if the point is conversion in this particular experience, whether it's a seven day or a five day or a weekend camp, if the point point is conversion, then oftentimes there needs to be a message progression that gets children or kids or humans from point A to point B. So whether that invitation to conversion happens on the first night of camp, as it does sometimes in denominations that are then going to err on the side of discipleship, for instance, for the rest of the week or discipleship talks. There is oftentimes a night or a talk or a sermon, however you want to say it, that is all about getting right with God or coming to God or making a decision for Jesus or for God. And so in that way, the way that I formatted the book, there's seven main chapters with an epilog and prolog before, as you know.

But those seven main chapters were indicative of the seven main talks that I gave as a camp speaker. And then, interestingly enough, I guess I started to hint at this at the beginning of answering your question. But I interviewed almost 50 people for this book, and it was universal across denominations. Again, whether or not that happened whenever that happened, sometimes it happened earlier in the week, so that there might be deeper quote, unquote messages. But there was oftentimes some sort of progression that followed of introducing people to God, to the person of Christ, but then also introducing concepts of sin and the cross, oftentimes through penal substitutionary atonement theory. And then whatever the aftermath might be, whether the aftermath be resurrection, be living in Christ, whatever it is. So that was oftentimes the progression, which was essentially a progression of. Of conversion.

Brian Lee
Yeah. And then there's usually some kind of, like, climax night, which your subtitle mentions, Cry Night in Pentecostal circles. It was Holy Spirit night. Depends on whatever it was. I mean, there was always that night. And you knew it was coming. You knew usually like Wednesday or Thursday night. So you still had a little bit of a downtime on the other end. So I definitely want to talk about all of that. You mentioned evangelicalism and more specifically white evangelicalism. Talk to us about the significance of white evangelicalism and camp.

Cara Meredith
Yeah, well, I'm so excited that we're going to get to cry night and/or speaking in tongues night and/or whatever we want. Holy Spirit Night, as you called it. So this too is, this can be the trickiest part to define, but it's also, I think, the most important and the most crucial part. And so we're talking, yes, we, as in perhaps me, myself and I, I'm talking about evangelicalism, but I'm specifically talking about white evangelicalism. So we have the word white in front of it. And part of that we can look at that and we can say, well, who does this message most benefit? And the reality is that for me, as a white woman, it is most benefiting people who look like me, perhaps to the detriment of people of color. Now, we can also, though we. I think we also have to take a step back and say, well, then what is evangelicalism? How do you define it? And there are so many different ways, obviously, that we can define it. We can define it by belief system. We can say, well, let's look at the Bebbington Quadrilateral. And it's then defined by belief in God, in Jesus, by conversion, and by activism.

Activism not being a No Kings protest on Saturday in June, but activism being the active verbal proclamation of one's faith. So you can look at, you can look at it, you can define it through Bebbington Quadrilateral. In the last 10 years, we've had a lot of people define it. And this is where the white part of it oftentimes come into play. But it's defined by political voting systems or values. So that's where we could say in the 2016 and in the 2024 election, the percentage of white evangelicals who voted Trump into office, we had 81%. In 2016, we had 80, 84%, 84, 85% in 2024. So the value system again, of who is most benefiting, and then it can also be defined simply by cultural values, by the conversations that ensue within these environments. But in and through all of it, within evangelicalism and white evangelicalism, the camps that I write about specifically there, there's oftentimes a combination of all of these values, but there's a combination also of, again, who is most benefiting and. And those who are most benefiting, whether it's from jobs, whether it's from speaker assignments, whether it's from the majority of campers who attend those camps, is then those who identify as white.

Brian Lee
Yeah, well, and you're right that white evangelicals quote white evangelicalism becomes a matter of inclusion and exclusion, becomes a structural story of space and tradition, of those who play a role in the greater conversation and those who do not. And it very much becomes like an us them in, out sort of dichotomy. Do you agree with that?

Cara Meredith
100%. I would be curious, as a white woman, for you, as I'm assuming Korean identifying man. But is is my interpretation of that situation of those who are most benefiting from the conversation or from the values, is that true? I have my own analysis, but I would love to hear what you think as well.

Brian Lee
I'd go back to your percentages and I'd say 1000%. I was always very aware as a high schooler or even working at camps, as a traveling musician, like you talk about in the book, is like, how much on the outside I felt.

Cara Meredith
Yeah, yeah.

Brian Lee
Or worse, like a novelty or maybe even a token, which is kind of the bottom of it. Right. So I was always very conscious and aware of feeling like, whether or not it was explicit or not being on the outside looking in.

Cara Meredith
Yeah, yeah.

Brian Lee
And that affects so many things. Well, thank you for asking the question, Cara.

Cara Meredith
Yeah.

Brian Lee
And, you know, part of the book you write, you know, "when the only image of God can perceive as a white male fatherly figure than those who aren't white and male and who won't assumedly ever see themselves as a father, can't see God in themselves." They don't fit the mold. And then you talk about race and ethnicity and adoptees and foster kids and all of these stories from campers who felt alienated or left out or pressured to conform or assimilate. Tell us about that, like what you learned through all of these interviews and conversations.

Cara Meredith
Yeah, I'm getting shivers up my spine right now as you share. I just. I want to say that because I think exactly what you just shared and the question that follows is so true to the experience of so many folks. It's true to the experience of those who have been marginalized, whether they have been. Whether people have been marginalized because of the color of their skin, because of their gender, because of their sexuality. There is a marginalized marginalization that has happened that. That is the opposite, is the antithesis of what Jesus stood for and who Jesus really is and the kingdom that God encompasses. For me, and I read about this later on, the very last chapter specifically looks at the harm that happens to people of color. And in that I am frank about the fact that. That the easiest people I had or I found to interview were white straight males. The second easiest group, white straight females. The third, interestingly enough, were white queer identifying men and then white queer identifying women. It was hardest to find people of color to interview. And I think that was for a couple of reasons.

I think it was, first of all because true harm has happened in environments that have not been racially, ethnically, or culturally inclusive, that have been exclusive. But I think also it is for a lot of people of color. They didn't go to these camps. They didn't attend white evangelical camps. Maybe their parents or caregivers had foresight enough to realize, no, this is not a great environment for them, but they oftentimes also did not attend these places, too. For a lot of folks that I've talked to afterwards, they may have grown up in ethnic specific religious environments where, uh, for instance, a Chinese church. And so they had their own camp that they were going to with other Chinese kids. And so it was both a cultural and a religious environment that was all inclusive. So they weren't necessarily going to these environments. But back to that point, I mean, I, there is, there is harm done when we are assuming and, or we are proclaiming that God only looks like part of the population. And I think it's then not hard to imagine and connect the dots through to what is happening in our country today, to what is going on at the hands of the administration, quite honestly.

Brian Lee
Yeah, well, and it's funny cause I'm processing in real time as you're talking because you mentioned these ethnic churches and camps. I grew up in a really large Korean church in Flushing, Queens with thousands of other people that looked like me and talked like me and ate like me and thought like me. And I also remember going to these Korean camps. And yet I'm trying to remember, did I still imagine God, who was being preached there, and Jesus as white, even being surrounded by Korean worship leaders and Korean speakers and Korean, you know, counselors and all of these things. There's a mental block. And I'm not even remembering right now how I imagined it because we also grew up going to an American church like years later after we moved and all these other things. But I'm, I, I'm going to be thinking about that.

Cara Meredith
Brian, you have to ping me, like you need to email me if and when you ever come up with an answer. I, I really am so curious about that.

Brian Lee
I have to. I have a counseling appointment tomorrow. I'm going to ask her about that too.

Cara Meredith
Oh my gosh. You're going to.

Brian Lee
What do you think about this?

Cara Meredith
Totally digging in.

Brian Lee
I totally am. Well, and there are so many other parts that come into play. We've already mentioned so many different kind of populations that get maybe not explicitly excluded, but they're not also really very included. One quote from Tiffany, who sums it up in a single statement. If you couldn't get on board with the patriarchy, you didn't have a place in this orbit. Let's talk about patriarchy and complementarianism in camp culture.

Cara Meredith
Yes, it is quite prevalent. Keep going.

Brian Lee
Isn't it though?

Cara Meredith
I'll see that you're about to say something.

Brian Lee
Yeah, well, I was just gonna say I again. I grew up going to camps for most of my life. I traveled as a musician for two summers at all kinds of camp for two entire summers. And I don't ever remember seeing a female speaker. So to. To read that you were one traveling. I was just, I was all in and fascinated.

Cara Meredith
Yeah, I mean, I, I think that was the, the chapter on the patriarchy. So just to back up a tiny bit, but I. We talked about the seven main chapters. If I could very loosely tell readers or listeners how every chapter progresses. It is certainly not linear, it's very spiritual memoir based, but would include a portion of what I said. So what I said from the stage 15 years ago of what was wrong with what I said. So unpacking it, and then of what we could say instead. So in talking about the patriarchy, complementarianism, and how that not only shows up in camp, but really in white evangelicalism as a whole, and how that then affects people years later, both men and women, but also can show up in values of Christian nationalism because it's just one domino after another that happens in a chapter that was all about introducing God as father. So the chapter is called God the Father. And again, this was what I proclaimed from the stage. I introduced God solely as a father figure. And part of the question that I start to dig around and answer or seek an answer for is what harm does it do if we are then only presenting God as a male father figure, only using he, him pronouns and language?

And if it is, if there's a singular vision of that, which again, like you hinted at, is also a singular vision of a white male father figure, then what is that doing to those who do not obviously identify as white, but also to those who are never going to be a father and. Or who are never going to be male? So what is that doing both to. To men and women, to girls and boys, let alone to those who identify as non binary? So that's where. That's where it kind of starts for me. It was, it was such an interesting experience because I recognize as much as I benefited from these environments or from this environment, I was also, I was also a lot of times the only one. I can't tell you how many times I had someone come up to me and say, wow, I've never heard a woman speak before, or wow, you're the best girl speaker we've ever had. You know, I mean, and the reality is that that is still the case today. Literally there are still women speakers who are coming up to me going, I am still hearing this message that I am the very first, that I am the only one.

And so then what does it mean to see how that plays into the patriarchy with the Tiffany quote, how if you can't get on board with the patriarchy, you just don't have a space in this orbit. But also, how does the patriarchy promote patriarchal values of complementarianism in which men and women are designed for certain roles and have certain values? So that's where we get male headship. That's where the patriarchy is in full play oftentimes at camp, whether we're talking about the one piece bathing suit rule, whether we're talking about sex and purity culture, because it's then entirely heteronormative, but it's also very abstinence focused. And, and it also is. Is placing full blame on the girls and, or on young women. And so what is that doing to them? Where the purity movement, which started in the 90s, is just still a huge part of the value system that's coming out. So I realize I just gave many different answers for a singular question, but it's. It is real.

Brian Lee
It is real. And that's. And that's the way it goes. And I appreciate it. Well, and we recently had a conversation with Sheila Gregoire about her newest book about marriage. But obviously talk about purity culture and sex and all of the things. And it'. It is inevitably at, I'm guessing, just about every single camp on day one, when they're setting the ground rules, it's just don't make purple. Right. Red and blue don't mix, so just don't hang out together. And what does that say to everyone else who doesn't want to make purple anyway? And it's such a weird cognitive dissonance for camps who claim right and say that you all belong here when you're here your home, or when you're here your family. But then out of the other side of their mouth are exiling or kicking out or punishing campers or staffers or counselors and volunteers who don't quite fit the mold.

Cara Meredith
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Lee
And it's just heartbreaking.

Cara Meredith
Yeah. I mean, I think this was most apparent and most obvious to me for, for those and with those who identify as LGBTQ, who find a home under queer identifying umbrella, for lack of a better word or phrase. But chapter three, in which we talk about Jesus and introduce Jesus, so to speak, is also a chapter in which the name of Jesus does harm and excludes. And like you said, instead of promoting belonging, which I think is the gospel that, I mean, it's. That's the gospel that you and I both believe in, that everyone has a home at the table, that all everyone belongs to that that is who God is. That instead we are excluding those who do not fit cisgender norms, who do not fit norms of sexuality. As far as, again, even that whole idea of making purple. What about those who actually think that, you know, blue and blue or pink and pink, there's such deep harm. And the reality. I tell the stories of two different people in chapter three. One woman named Sarah Powell, another non binary individual named Harmony. And for both of them, they were excluded. They, to varying degrees, but they were excluded because of their sexualities.

And so what does that mean in the church today? I mean, it's once again, it's completely up for grabs across denominations, but it is becoming the line in the sand. And I just go, what is this? This is not who Jesus is. This is not what God. This is not God's idea for humanity. So it's, I mean, it's equal parts heartbreaking. And I also feel like it's a non argument, like, of course everyone belongs. Like, why are we even having this conversation about not belonging?

Brian Lee
Yeah, well, I think so many, however you want to define it or draw the boundaries, camps or churches or denominations or cultures or whatever that circle is, sure. Have spent so much time building their own fences or walls or boundaries or whatever it is. And the quote that broke my heart about Harmony is the same man who stood outside a set of closed gates begging them to accept their quote, mission, should they so choose, who continually preached a message of belonging and claimed that, quote, it didn't matter your background, God loves you and you have a place here, kicked Harmony to the curb. And that just, that sums up the experience of so many people who are hearing one thing and experiencing something completely different. Another heartbreaking part. Like, so there's, there's sexual identity. There's also just race and ethnicity. And one of the quotes from one of the people you interviewed as a black kid, I felt forced to sacrifice the parts of my blackness I loved and the parts I didn't even know existed to have a seat at the table which was built on white normativity and even having their blackness used as a punchline for a skit.

Because, boy, isn't it just always funny when a black kid gets angry? I've seen it. I've seen it in action.

Cara Meredith
Yeah. And I imagine also, as you hinted at earlier, I mean, you've experienced it.

Brian Lee
Yeah.

Cara Meredith
As a man of color and, and I mean, this is, this is a big part of how the book began, was realizing the harm that had happened to women, to people of color and to the LGBTQ community. And I think for me, I've been on my own journey over the years. My husband, who identifies as black, our children who are mixed race, who identify as mixed race or black, depending on the day, they've been a big part of my journey into my own privilege and understanding and unpacking whiteness. And. And so for me to see and to realize through them loving me and me loving them, and that and change happening along the way, that has certainly opened my eyes in a whole new way. Just as friends who identify as LGBTQ+, how they have changed me as well. The same goes for my own family. And so it was. It was an honor in the same way, just getting to interview Malcolm, the. The young man that you quoted right there, but also equally heartbreaking and. And just going, okay, this is not. It's. It's not singular. His is not a singular experience.

Yeah. The reality is that this is happening to thousands of children. And the reality, too, and this goes back to something we were saying earlier, but who does this system most benefit? And. And you can look at that, and you can look at even the historicity of camping and of Christian camping in America. When camping first started, as far as, like, institutionalized camping in the 1800s, it started as an effort to get white men out of urban environments into the woods. But, I mean, that was during Jim Crow era. So it's. I mean, it's not like our country, nor does our country necessarily today have systematic. You know, it systematically benefits every single person of every single race. But. But the reality is that that is that the historicity of it continues to affect an impact the numbers today. And so you then see that, indeed, across the board, in. When it comes to camping, 85% of staff people identify as white. So what is that also saying to young kids of color? And so. And you can also then see the stats for children of color and for those who are attending camps. So across the board, it's real and we have to do something about it.

Brian Lee
Yeah. Well, I think another part that kind of shines a light on how some camps are trying to create, quote, solutions, or maybe. Or maybe alternatives is a better word, is you talk about how some places will create a separate week, quote, for their kind, which says all kinds of things. Just that phrase alone, right? And there's this disconnect, and this staff member says it was like the whole thing was blamed on race, culture, or ethnicity because all the white staff didn't know how these parts of identity might also be a part of faith. And doesn't that just communicate the whole thing right there, that they just couldn't even understand how faith is not attached to being white?

Cara Meredith
Absolutely. 100%. I mean, you. You just said it. I don't think I have anything to add to that. But you nailed it. Exactly.

Brian Lee
So as someone who comes with 38 plus years of experience, as someone who's been trying to reconcile with all of these things, as someone who has been loving and being loved by a black husband and multiracial or black kids, depending on the day and depending on which code they're switching to, what are you finding to move forward or how are.

Cara Meredith
You choosing to move forward in life or with camp?

Brian Lee
Maybe both.

Cara Meredith
You know, how I am choosing to move forward is to be present, as present as I can in each moment. And whatever the decisions, I know that my. My sons, my boys are almost 11 and 13, so they are young men, and they are. If they were sitting right here, they would be sure to tell you that they are not 12, but they are. They are 12 and 11 twelfths. They are almost 13 years old and almost 11 years old. But how I am moving forward is I am honoring as much as I can their identities. I am learning from them. I am growing with them. I mean, we. We live in an. In an urban environment. We live in a predominantly black and brown environment and neighborhood. And I honor their racial identities as much as I can as I learn about my own, because it would be. It would also be detrimental if I. If I were fully enveloping their identities as young men of color and for my husband as a man of color and not also digging into the roots of who I am in my Scottish and Irish roots as an Ashkenazi Jewish woman.

So what does it mean for me to also dig into that and honor and learn from. And honor with. So, for instance, you and I are recording this a couple of days prior to Juneteenth. And as my younger son said in the. In the car on the way to. On the way to summer school this morning, he said. He said, mama, Juneteenth is coming up, and that means that the boys get to decide what's for dinner. And I was like, all right. And he said. He said, we get to decide because we're black. I said, awesome. What are we having for dinner? And he went through the list of what he's having. But in the same way, what does it mean for me to recognize, okay, on St. Patrick's Day next year, we are going to honor mama's heritage, and I'm going To cook some food that honors part of who you are as well, because this is a quarter of your identity as well. So we are learning and growing. We are enveloping conversations and doing that together, I hope.

Brian Lee
Yeah. Well, I love that for so many reasons, and I think one of the big ones is just recognizing that you've helped to create an environment where your son feels comfortable saying that to you. Where in so many places, I think someone of color or a minority who has felt marginalized or sent to the outskirts of something would never feel the agency or empowerment to speak up about anything about. This is what I want. And so the fact that he's having that conversation with you and saying, hey, this is coming up. And so this is how we're going to celebrate. Because it's my day.

Cara Meredith
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Lee
And I love how in our family. So my. My wife is white, and yet she's kind of taken the charge on, hey, on this day, we're going to celebrate the Lunar New Year, because this is what Korean culture does.

Cara Meredith
Yeah.

Brian Lee
And my boys are Korean. And so we're gonna make the food and celebrate with this way and do these things. And that's one of the things that I just love about her and the way that she's helping to create our family and this environment. And whether we keep it in camps or extend its churches or communities or neighborhoods or governments, whatever it is, when we take the time and when we take the care to just listen to the people who normally we would overlook or say, you're too young to have an opinion or you're too small or you're too black or too gay or too. Whatever it is. And so, like you're saying from the beginning and all throughout, it's like, who does this benefit? It's like, well, don't we want this to benefit everyone? And what if someone thinks differently than I do? And what if that's a good thing because I'm so stuck in doing it the way I've always done it.

Cara Meredith
Yeah.

Brian Lee
That we're just not seeing it.

Cara Meredith
Yeah. There was a. I'll try to remember to send it to you. But there was a review that came out last week that I think might be one of my favorites yet. It was from a publication called the Living Church, which is an Anglican publication. So they. They write about both Anglican and Episcopal churches and movements within it. And so the writer, a woman named Jerusalem Greer, she's also an author. She was in the evangelical world for a long time before she jumped ship, so to speak over to the Episcopal pond, but she now is working as a full time camp director. And so she holds this tension of the faith of her childhood with the chosen faith of her adulthood with having worked in a number of environments. But at one point she said, she said, you know, I really hope that everyone who is at camp, who's working at a camp will read this. And the reality is that there will be a tension present in which you say, well, what Cara wrote about here is not what we do at camp. And then there will be a tension of, well, wait a minute, this is exactly what we do and this is exactly what happens.

And so I love that she just spelled out the tension that I think so many of us live with. As much as we don't want to, we sometimes don't want to admit things or we want to stay in our little safety nets, in our incubus, instead of wondering what might we do? How can we ask bigger questions so that indeed this is benefiting everyone instead of an exclusive few?

Brian Lee
Yeah, I love that. I love it. Yeah, send it to me, please. I want to touch briefly on camp theology because this is a podcast and community for people who have experienced spiritual abuse and so many of us experienced at camp because it is such a short and concentrated amount of time where you are completely immersed in this world. And there's one quote, I don't remember the person's first name, but it's right. Somebody write, you quote them saying, "Look at the two verbs, God so loved the world that he gave his son. The trouble with the popular version I've described is I can easily be heard as saying instead that God so hated the world that he killed his only son. And so we try to throw love into things, saying, God, look what God did because of his love." There is so much, so much rampant manipulation going on at camps and church and communities and Christian schools and all these things. The highly dramatized skits and plays and songs and what we used to call human videos or running out of the room crying because of a specific thing, feeling shame that wasn't even yours to feel because it wasn't your thing. But it's so manipulative. And the music and, you know, talk to us about manipulative camp theology and what do we do with it.

Cara Meredith
Yeah, well, the quote is from N.T. Wright. He is one of my favorite theologians ever. A lot of times in truncated environments like camp. It's the same, though, at VBS, oftentimes at an event. I was at an event last night here in Oakland, California, and one of the one of the attendees said, this is exactly what happens in youth groups as well. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, just like you were saying in a number of different environments. Oftentimes again, if we're trying to get from point A to point B, which is to say from not believing to believing, from being maybe a lukewarm Christian to being an on fire for Jesus Christian, if we're trying to get to that point of conversion, we have to have a point in which a decision is made. That's where oftentimes in these truncated, just smaller solidified environments like camp, you have to have a theory that is going to produce results, that is going to try to get there. And so as I talked about earlier, that's where penal substitution oftentimes comes out to play. A number of denominations that I interviewed, folks from actually do not believe in penal substitution, but penal substitution, which is one of seven main theories that we find to explain the atonement, the story of Jesus on the cross is oftentimes the ones that that is used because it produces results, but it produces results through shame and manipulation.

It is so harmful. And so then in answer to your question, this is where when we employ a, an atonement theory that centers first of all on debt, on the debt that, that Jesus had to pay for God on the cross. But we employ it in a way, the tactics that are used to employ it involve shame and guilt to get there. That's when manipulation happens. So for me, I just go, of course we're going to be seeing 10,000 people a day deconverting from Christianity because this was overwhelmingly the theory and the tactic that was used that made them feel horrible about themselves, feel like nothing, feel worthless, feel completely shamed. And like you were saying, even if they didn't have shame that needed, that even need be employed in that moment, that the only solution to their shame, to their nothingness, to their worthlessness, was Jesus. And so of course, children who are at such, who are at such a stage of not only a vulnerability, but of impression are going to say yes to that. They're going to say yes to that. When everyone else around them is saying yes to that, they're going to say yes when that is the expected response.

I mean, you and I laughed about it at the beginning. We all knew Wednesday night was coming. Whether we called it cry night or Holy Spirit night or talking speaking in tongues night, those are the two assemblies of God, or the Presbyterians called it confession night, serious night. I mean, literally there were like a dozen names for this one night, you knew it was coming. The counselors and the staff, they had these somber looks upon their faces. The campers knew, though. I mean, for those who went to camp, like 20, 30 years ago, they were like, well, as soon as Michael W. Smith or Jennifer Knapp, Jane Knapp started playing, like you knew serious time was coming, like you knew what you were supposed to do. But all of this happened with a threat. If you don't say yes to Jesus, you're going to continue to be worthless. But also, the end result is hell. Like, let's employ a couple of verses from Romans. Let's throw out Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23. That all of a sudden, if you don't say yes to this, then the end result is that you are going to hell. So this is where I just go, my God, what harm we have done?

What harm we have done in. In telling people that this is the only way that God can love them, that they can be loved by God, is to believe a message like this. The last thing I'll say is this, is that it's been. It's been really interesting. The majority of environments that I've been speaking to, I would say probably two thirds are Episcopal churches. And that's because I find a home in the Episcopal tradition now. But in the conversations that are happening there oftentimes are around defining white evangelicalism as a whole and connecting it to what's going on in our country. The other one third, though, of conversations are happening in evangelical, post evangelical and exvangelical environments. And within those spaces, almost everything is entirely centered on spiritual abuse and emotional manipulation. In these environments, I do not have to define what happened, because it is already the language that people speak, that we speak. So it is. It is a completely different kind of conversation, but it is a holy one nonetheless. Where a couple of weeks ago, we met in Bellingham. Bellingham, Washington. And we sat there at this backyard event. And a friend who is a therapist specializing in spiritual trauma, she was the one who led the conversation.

And my words were simply permission givers to everyone else there to say to. To simply say, what is your relationship to evangelicalism? Where are you now? And how can we heal together? So. So I sit here and I go, I. I may never meet those people in Bellingham again. But we shared something that I think was the beginning of healing, the beginning of embracing a new kind of belovedness.

Brian Lee
Yeah. It's why one of the values that we hold to in our organization is this idea of goodness over wickedness, which sounds self explanatory, but it's a little more nuanced than that. Maybe not nuanced, but It's a Genesis 1 and 2 theology over a Genesis 3 theology of we were created with original intent of being very good versus this intent of wickedness and depravity. And you quote this poor children getting off the bus believing themselves to be worthless sacks of garbage. I'm a dirty rotten little sinner, says a 10 year old shouting as she steps off the bus. And then the 17 year old boy replies, I'm a worthless piece of shit. Right? And it's like you kind of laugh at it, but then your heart breaks. It's like, this is what we are teaching our children to think about themselves. Yeah, and I love that you write. The problem, of course, is that sin wasn't the most important thing to Jesus. He wasn't really interested in defining people by their sinfulness, but by their belovedness. And my goodness, what would happen if that's how we treated the way that we talk about campers and churchgoers and our community and other people around us?

Maybe it won't be, quote, as effective in, you know, boosting the numbers of confessions or conversions or all of these things. But goodness, what that, what that would do to us for our identity and for our culture and all the things.

Cara Meredith
Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the most asked questions I get at events is, how would you format a seven talk progression today? And I haven't all the way come up with my answer. I feel like I really need to actually sit down and spend a day with it. But I also feel like what I would do, what I would say is simply say, you are beloved, you are God's beloved, you are beloved to Jesus, you, beloved matter, you matter, beloved. I mean, it would mean it would be a message of belovedness over and over again. Why not unpack that for seven days? Why not let one's identity come into play within that belovedness? Because our identity is an intrinsic part of who we are and of what God loves best about us. So I think it would just, I would be like Oprah just shouting from the front of the stage like, you are beloved and you are beloved and you are beloved. Like that's all it would be. And out of that belovedness we have belonging. Out of that belovedness we go, oh yeah, I do believe in this. I do. I do believe this message.

Like I'm in.

Brian Lee
I love it.

Cara Meredith
Let's go to camp, Brian. You can be the camp, you could be the musician.

Brian Lee
We'll do it together. There are so many other questions that I want to ask, but they would take too long to answer. So I will tell people, just go get the book and have a conversation with yourself and the book. Because what you write about capitalism and the economics of volunteer labor is wild, which I know because I was part of that. Volunteer labor getting not paid. The generous $2.96 an hour for camp staffers, or maybe as low as a dollar eighty an hour. The numbers games, the outback award winners, we would call them the CD handshakes at the end of the week from the camp director. It's like, here's a. Here's a slimy $50 bill. Thanks for your time. It's like, ew, this feels gross. And I'd rather not have it about the manipulation about the performance that happens. Like you're saying, all the counselors, all the campers know that Wednesday night is coming, so we better act this certain way and be more serious and be ready for the song to play. And all of this stuff. I think where I would love to end is even with everything you have to say about camp, with all of the very honest critiques like you say this, just wrestling with the very real tension of what's happening and not happening at camps, you still write so honestly and earnestly about hope.

What is that hope and why do you still hold on to it?

Cara Meredith
Well, that hope is God, and that hope is the God who is still present in that place. The hope is the God who is present in these places called sacred playgrounds, as camp enthusiast Jacob Sorensen calls them. But, but that God does not change. And just as God, I mean that, that, that is the truth of the resurrection. Like the resurrection is hope. That is what we have. That is who we have in Jesus, who is our hope. And in that way, my hope is that, that we might see that true nature of who God is, who already is so present in camps, regardless of what we humans sometimes feel like we have to do on the outside to programmatic places and convert places and just do all these different things. God is present in that place, which is to say that hope is present in that place. So I think that's what it is, is that I just, I believe in hope and hope is there.

Brian Lee
Thank you. This has been lovely. Cara, where can people find or connect with you if they're looking?

Cara Meredith
Yes, I am on most socials, as @carameredithwrites. And then you can connect with me on Substack, which is carameredith.substack.com and you can buy the book wherever books are sold.

Brian Lee
That's right. So everyone go get a copy of Church Camp, Bad Skits, Cry Night and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation. Everywhere books are sold. We'll provide all the links in the show notes. Cara, thank you so much for being with us.

Cara Meredith
Thank you Brian.

Brian Lee
What a fun and illuminating conversation. If you enjoyed it as much as I did, be sure to follow Cara and say thanks for being being on the show. You can find links and all the things in the show notes. Coming up on the show we have Becky Castle, Miller, Zach Lambert, Ben Cremer, Dr. Arielle Schwartz and so many more. Next time we'll be talking with David Gate about his new book of A Rebellion of Care. Subscribe or follow the show to get new episodes automatically. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review or share with your friends. It really helps us to grow and continue providing quality content for you.

And thank you to everyone who makes the show possible through their financial support. We truly couldn't do this work without you. Consider a donation today at the link in the show notes.

This episode was hosted and executive produced by me, Brian Lee, editing by Heidi Critz, and post production by Lisa Carnegis. Thanks for taking the time out of your day to listen. I hope it's been helpful. Here's to moving toward healing and wholeness together. I'll see you next time.

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