063: A Rebellion of Care with David Gate
Jul 15, 2025
How can we resist the overwhelming loneliness and despair of our time?
In this episode, I speak with author and poet David Gate about his debut collection of poems and essays titled Rebellion of Care. In a world that feels bent on individualism, capitalism, and fundamentalism, he suggests that it’s going to take some rebellion to create a new way of living—a life that’s full of radical care, beauty, and kindness. David shares how to move beyond providing “safe” care to a form of care that requires risk and artistic imagination. He also shares his creative process while writing his book, how the themes of self, community, love, and resilience emerged, and even reads a sneak peek of his poetry you won't want to miss.
Guest Spotlight ✨
Website | Instagram | Substack
Links & Resources 🔗
-
A Rebellion of Care by David Gate | Malaprop’s Bookstore, Asheville, NC | Bookshop
-
All Families are Psychotic by Douglas Coupland | Amazon
- Make Sense of Your Story by Adam Young |Bookshop | Amazon
Episode Transcript 📄
David Gate
So much of it is about being able to believe and trust in your own experiences. In the absence of an empathetic witness. I have to be the empathetic witness for my own trauma. And so an apology, by and large, and why they're so important and a real apology is so important because it can convert them somewhat into an empathetic witness if they are truly sorry, right?
And so that's why an apology can be so healing and so helpful. At least the acknowledgement of a trauma can be really helpful. And often you can find that in a. That's what therapy is. A lot of the time it's like, you know, you. The validation of your experiences from a, from a therapist can be hugely healing and supportive. So that's kind of, you know, what I tried to distill into a tiny little, tiny little poem about the cut of my arm and yeah, and scabs and healing.
Brian Lee
Hey friends, welcome back to the Broken to Beloved podcast. If you're looking for practical resources for recovery from and safeguarding against spiritual abuse, then this is the place for you. I'm your host, Brian Lee. As an ordained pastor and spiritual abuse survivor, I know what it feels like navigating life after spiritual abuse. I also know what it's like to want to prevent anything from happening to the people you know and love. It's why Broken to Beloved exists. And we can't do it alone. We need your help. Support our work by becoming a donor to help make our podcasts and programs possible. Just head to brokentobeloved.org/support or click the link to donate in the show notes.
Today we're talking with David Gate about his new book, A Rebellion of Care. I discovered David, like many of you probably have, reading his poetry posts on Instagram. He was also a speaker at our 2024 Annual Summit and I still think about that conversation today.
David grew up in London before making his way to Belfast, Northern Ireland and Jacksonville, Florida. He now lives in the ancient Appalachian mountains of Asheville, North Carolina, where he writes, mills flour and tends to a 1 acre homestead with his partner and children.
And now here's my fascinating conversation with our friend, David Gate. David, welcome to the podcast.
David Gate
Thank you. Thank you, Brian. Thanks for having me.
Brian Lee
Right out of the gate. Why was this the right time for a book for you?
David Gate
I kind of, as hopefully your listeners may know some of my work that I've been posting on Instagram for the last three or four years and there's only so much you can fit into those little squares and there's you know, like, and I. I've really loved the challenge and the limitations of that and. And you know, how social media can actually shape creative writing is a very interesting thing for me and. And has been very fruitful for me. But I found myself writing more and more things that would not fit on a square. You know, like most writers, I think I've always dreamed of doing books and it just felt like the right time. Like I had this material, you know, and there are quite a few of the. The poems that people know online, but it's like an 80% new book. You know, it's got essays, it's got longer poems, it's got. It allows me like to do far more creative stuff as well.
So, yeah, it just felt time in terms of the format to do a book, but also in terms of like, where we are as a society, where I am in terms of my faith life, where I am in terms of my political life, and also for like our community and you know, the people I've connected with online. It just felt like this was the right time for this message too, and for these ideas to. To kind of have an emphasis.
Brian Lee
Yeah, I mean, it's called A Rebellion of Care, which is making a statement.
David Gate
Yep, it is.
Brian Lee
And we'll certainly talk about it. Because you've been writing now for how long?
David Gate
I've been writing things since I was a teenager. I mean, I was writing songs and lyrics as a teenager, so over 30 years at this point. Um, and then during, you know, that was how I kind of got started writing. And I had a lot of encouragement early on, had things published as a teenager, and so was really encouraged. And you know, over the years I've written blogs and sermons and articles and devotionals. When I was in kind of like church ministry, I had a job for a while writing sports articles. I'm really, you know, the typical white dude that has too much to say. So, like, I. Yeah, I have been writing things really my. My whole life, certainly my whole adult life. But in terms of specifically poetry, I would write. You know, I wrote poetry for a long time in a very kind of over serious way where I would sit down. I would sit down in the evenings, light some candles, listen to jazz and. And like. Right, right. Very, very weighty poems, you know, because. Feeling like it had to be heavy because that's what good poetry is, you know, referencing the Second World War and like all sorts of things.
So that was kind of what I was doing. And then eventually I lightened up a little bit creatively. And had some things that I felt were more shareable and, And. And just generally better and began to share those in Instagram starting in 2021. So that's kind of the journey.
Brian Lee
And you've certainly found an audience.
David Gate
Yes.
Brian Lee
Or a community or whatever you want to call it. I hate the word platform, so.
David Gate
Yeah. Yeah. Platform is not an appealing world. A community, an audience, a readership, people who take the time to read what I write. So, yes, I found some people who are willing to do that. And I'm very grateful for those.
Brian Lee
Pretty sure that's how I found you. May be around 2021 or shortly thereafter, but have been following in a fan of your work for. For quite a while. We got to have you at the summit. I don't know if it was a year or two ago. This was a lot of fun. And I still reference some of the stuff we talked about all the way back then. I specifically remember you saying something along the lines of leaving this conservative fundamentalism and that if we don't learn how to dismantle that fundamentalism, we take it with. With us into the progressive side or whatever it is. And you carry all the same problems with you. And I talk about that all the time. And I say, David told me at the next point.
David Gate
I mean, I've really seen it play out in the last year or two, you know, in the lead election and afterwards about, you know, just how, you know, so many progressive people who have let go of a conservative background, still think in fundamentalist terms and still.
Brian Lee
Yeah.
David Gate
Approach others in a fundamentalist way and demand certain things of other people and haven't really examined the way they hold beliefs in relation to other people. They've just changed their beliefs to much better beliefs. I, you know, and I'm really glad about that. That's real progress. But we also have to examine how we hold our beliefs.
Brian Lee
Yeah. And I think in a community like this that is unfortunately structured around the. The experience of abuse, it's when we hold. It's one thing to hold those beliefs, it's another thing to exert them on someone else.
David Gate
Yes.
Brian Lee
And that's where we get into the trouble with it. Yeah. I so appreciate the themes that you tackle all throughout the book. I love the way that you set it up and the way you organize it. I don't know if you would call them chapters or sections or opening interludes or essays. Would you walk us through the creative thought process of organizing it the way it is?
David Gate
Yeah. When I initially came to write a book, like I, I had noticed that this theme of care and this what I call an or the organizing principle of care in lieu of perhaps political ideologies that I had become not so jiving with and religious or spiritual or doctrinal ideologies that add. You know, had changed for me. I'd really wanted to. To work out where, what did I think and what did I value and what do I want to build in this world, you know, and care, care for each other was really the organizing principle. And so all of my spiritual political ideas really stem out of that central idea. And so I noticed that that was in my writing. Like I hadn't really planned it that way, but when I look back at all the things I've been posting that this was the theme and, and so when I came to write the book I noticed that that theme really naturally split up into a few different categories which would be friendship, which I write on a lot. Spiritual and religious experience, kind of like a political or anti capitalist way of viewing the system we live in.
It would also include emotional health, it would also include our bodies, physical health. And it would also include family and family relationships and dynamics. And so I think, oh, and the, and the, the natural world, you know, like so how we engage and care for the natural world. And so all these things kind of. It seemed like obvious chapters to me and most of the poems fit in pretty neatly to those, those chapters and so one or two I had to, you know, shoehorn in a little bit. But, but the. Most of the work in there fits really, really easily into to those categories.
And so yeah, when I came to write the book I wanted to write like an overview like essay of the chapter, kind of a little overview of my general thought and feeling and principle in, in regards to care and also about rebellion. It's not. I talk about care an awful lot in, in when I talk about the book because that's the organizing principle. But it's as much of a book about rebellion as it is about care. So it really is both those things.
Brian Lee
Yeah. What does rebellion mean for you?
David Gate
Oh, to resist status quo. And at the moment the status quo I would say is a gradual decline. And so I am resisting the gradual decline and the status quo of our world and our current way of being with the underlining principle that most of it is, is just not good for us and the way the world is shaped. And that yes, we've made awful lots of progress in many ways. Like we have more clothes than we could possibly ever need in our lifetimes. We have, at least at the moment, an abundance of food. Like food. We're throwing away food all the time.
So, like, we have, you know, these certain kind of. We have hot water. You know, like, we have certain things that would 100 years ago appear to be luxuries, but actually the way we go about all of those things is actually not good for us, not good for our planet, not good for our communities, not good for our personal interactions, not good for our hearts, minds, bodies and souls and so forth. Yeah, the rebellion is very much like doing things in. In ways that actually look after our hearts, minds, body, souls, communities, and the natural world. And so that. That is the rebellious aspect of it.
Brian Lee
Yeah, I love it. I'm thinking of a quote because I'm not all caught up on Andor yet, but I'm making my way through it. I know you just posted about it recently.
David Gate
Yes.
Brian Lee
There's an episode and a moment where Director Krennic from the Empire is there and they're kind of examining this art gallery.
Right. Yeah.
And there's this confrontation with the senator. And I forget how he says it, but basically. So my terrorist is your rebel or something along those ways. And I think of that. I've been thinking about it since I watched that. And so as we talk about a rebellion of care, it's easy to understand why some people would see it as rebellion, other people might see it as terrorism. I think based on this underlying fundamentalist principle of life has to be this one way.
Yeah.
David Gate
Yes. And that's like what I'm really trying to spark the imagination that not only can life be a different way, but that different way makes a difference because so much of it feels so small incidental, like, you know, how you. You re engage in. In the natural world, how you look after your body, how you look after your friendships. Kind of seems like the tiny, tiny things that do not change anything. But I'm consistently reaffirming the message that yes, it absolutely does. And those things add up to weaken the system and cause, you know, like a totally new way of life to exist in the kind of rotting carcass of an old way. So because. Because that always isn't just going to stop overnight. It's going to continue to. To rot. And so we have to. We have to come up with new ways within. Within that rotting carcass. Yeah.
Brian Lee
Yeah, well, and which is why I appreciate that it is a rebellion of care. And even while people could distort care to say, oh, well, I'm doing this because I care and that turns out terribly. What I recognize in that is that in systems of toxicity and abuse that care is often centered around this hyper individualistic view of things or around the need to hold onto power and control. And I see you write very much against all of those things. There's such a theme of connection and community. I love that you open with a manifesto for A Rebellion of Care. And I would love to read some short parts towards the end of that one. And then I'm gonna ask you to read the rest of the stuff that I talk about. But I love the way you open it. It's just,
David Gate
Thank you.
Brian Lee
"Always be totally yourself. But know the most radical thing you can do, what will really change the world is to allow others to be their full selves in their complexity and their entirety and their absurdity. Dignity is the only thing that you can give that when given, you will have more of than when you began. We contain multitudes, therefore we exist in our own beings as community."
I just, I highlighted it like three times over just to make it extra bold and wet and juicy and just thought this is what a way to open and start us off. Tell us where that comes from and you're talking about the resistance of all of these things and consumerism and blah, blah, blah, blah. What is that idea? Because it's so anti the individualism, anti power and control. Where does that come from?
David Gate
So for me, in theory, capitalism and the capitalist way we live in really prizes the individual. In theory.
Brian Lee
Yeah.
David Gate
Right? So, and I actually think in theory that's a good thing. Like in theory, the individual is really important and particularly the dignity of the individual. But what happens is within the system is that it isn't really about the dignity of the individual. It's about kind of some kind of illusion of freedom. And really that is the freedom to consume. The freedom to consume is. And to have choice in consumption is really how we distill individualism. Right. And the priority of the individual. So I don't reject a certain kind of individualism, but it has to be totally connected and in conversation with a collectivism for me. So that's why I say in that quote you read out, like, being yourself is absolutely incredible, but like, actually we've all been told to be ourselves probably since we were kids and you know, it's not really a new thing to say. And actually, you know, as I say there in the quote, you read like the really, the most radical thing is to allow others to be themselves. Like, that actually is a way of affirming a certain kind of individualism and the dignity of the individual.
But I'm doing that for others, right? Rather than just simply asserting it for myself, I am making sure that others get that. And so it's really about the relationship between that kind of dignity of the individual and the. And the kind of collectivism and that we're all in this together thing. So how that interacts is fascinating for me. And I think where the real gold is, like, that's where. When I'm digging in my work, like, that's where I find the real God, when I find how those things interact. And sometimes that's messy and sometimes it's contradictory, and sometimes, like, there's no easy answer. But actually that mess is the thing that is where we live. And so, you know, to. To talk about that and to reflect on it and to. And to examine it is really important.
Brian Lee
Yeah, I love that you relate that interconnectedness not just. Just to those around us, but to everything within us as well. And so there's one of the opening essays, which, let me go off on a sidebar. How was that for you? Because I love getting to read, like, an extended piece of prose.
David Gate
So I have...I agreed at the beginning of the book like this, the book needed this. Like, it needed these summing up pieces at the beginning. But what I wanted to do, I didn't feel confident in essay writing because I hadn't really done it for a long time. Like, I had been mainly writing poetry. And so what I tried to do was I tried to do these kind of, like, prose hybrid pieces. Like, they were kind of prose, but they just ended up feeling very broken up. And, you know, they were quite artistic, and some of the lines were really powerful. But it didn't really work. And I tried to make it work.
And then the editors were like, you should probably just make these actual essays. And then once they said that, I was like, okay, yeah, let's just do that. And then, thankfully, I got them all to a place where I was like, oh, yeah, the editors were right. This is why you have editors. And actually, I'm really pleased with the essays. And kind of since I wrote those, it. It kind of re. Renewed my love for writing essays. And so now with my substack, I'm doing it every week, really writing one of these essays every week. And I love it. And it's nice to do a different format and to. And to slowly get better at it.
So I found it that. That was probably the hardest part of the book was to write these essays just because I had to go through a. Yeah. A realization that I wasn't. That my idea wasn't as good as I thought it was. And my skill level could not, could not do this kind of...thing.
Brian Lee
Well, you just didn't have as many repetitions with essays as you did with poetry.
David Gate
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And also because I was trying to do this hybrid thing that I thought was really creative, but I guess there's a reason why kind of like poetic prose essays are not that common. I think maybe it's because they're really hard and difficult to read so.
Brian Lee
Well, and I'm glad you mentioned your editors because I wanted to ask about kind of the. The craft of the whole process of, like, how much the editors play a role, especially in a book of poetry.
David Gate
Yeah.
Brian Lee
With these essays interspersed throughout. What was that like working with someone rather than you just getting to type something and post it?
David Gate
Really good. I, like, I was really looking. I wish they had been meaner, and I wish they had been, you know, because they were really nice the whole way through. And I was trying to push them to. To like, really push the work to be better and. And so forth. No, I really appreciated the. The sound board, their experience, their takes there, because, like, you know, like, when you post online, you're kind of doing this in isolation a lot of the time and in terms of certainly the creative element. So. Yeah, I loved having editorial comment and really, like, they. They probably offered more to the essays than to. Than to the poems, though A number of the poems were really improved by. By their. Their input, mainly. The thing that they really did was help me edit out the. The. The least strong pieces of work. So.
Brian Lee
Yeah.
David Gate
Yeah, lots left on that was probably 100 pieces that didn't make it to the book.
Brian Lee
Wow, wow. Okay. Returning from the sidebar, the sense of connectedness not just to other people, but to self. And there's a short little section in one of the essays which I can't remember where. But talking about the way that we treat ourselves echoes in the way that we treat others. And if our internal lives are marked by managing, manipulating, coping, then that's all our relationships amount to. But if we can extend compassion to ourselves, if we can accept our bodies for what they are, for what they are becoming, then we begin to offer that same care to the people around us. And I love that idea. And I often talk about that. It's like if we are really to actually live the second greatest commandment and love our neighbors as ourselves, and that means we have to learn how to love ourselves.
David Gate
Yeah. It really is like to view yourself as a kind of playground and of a kind of practice arena for the process of caring for others. Like in learning how to truly care for yourself as well, not just I want this and I want that and blah, blah, but like, okay, you know, actually ascertaining needs, working out how to meet those needs, working out in conjunction with others. Because you can't meet all your own needs, how to meet your own needs, you then learn skills in order to meet the needs of others. And, and of course it's that there's a danger of it being insular or there's a danger of it being very inward looking. But I think if you approach yourself with that kind of kindness, that there's a certain kind of kindness that we reserve for other people. Um, and if you can view yourself with that kind of kindness that you reserve for other people, then it can be really informative to actually care for other people better. Yeah, you'll get better at that. Kindness for others as well as yourself.
Brian Lee
And I think transformative for ourselves.
David Gate
Yes.
Brian Lee
To be able to live life with that kindness and care not just for others, but for ourselves. I love how you write about the imperfection, perfection of connection in the irrevocable condition.
David Gate
Yeah.
Brian Lee
I've often also found more genuine and more authentic connection in those really imperfect and chaotic spaces.
David Gate
Yeah.
Brian Lee
How have you found it in those spaces?
David Gate
When I was a teenager, I think, or maybe my early 20s, I was really into Douglas Copeland, the, the, the writer. And he has a book. All Families Are [Psychotic]. And I agreed with that. Like it's, it's, it's a novel, but it's like, yes, it's. That as a, an overview is, is very true. And so there is a certain psychotic nature to, to all families. And the admitting of that, the naming of it, the bringing that into the light isn't. It doesn't have to be a point of shame. It can actually be a point of connection. And so one of, one of the points I make in that essay is that the imperfect love that I have in my family and the nature of my partnership with, you know, my spouse and, and just how inadequate I am as a parent, that imperfect love that we have, there are things in that which will actually meet the gaps that you have in your family and that there are things in your family that you do really well that will actually, if we allow ourselves to connect in this way, will help my family.
And so be, and really, the beginning of that is honesty and being truthful in what our families are actually like and the actual dynamics of it. Not hiding it from each other, not trying to look like the perfect family. And I think particularly American culture really tries to. To portray that kind of perfect Christmas card. Everyone's wearing matching pajamas, family life and. And the family is sacred, you know, kind of in the American dream. And, and the trouble with all sacred things is that you. It's very difficult to be honest about them. And so yeah, I think a certain kind of honesty is. Is helpful. And the. And. And I would say, and I make this point in the friendship chapter of the book that like the. The sacredness of friendship is really what we need to concentrate on and where we need to put our energy.
Brian Lee
Thank you for sharing that. "Human Becoming" may be one of my favorite sections or chapters. Would you read for us?
David Gate
Yes.
Brian Lee
"Sorry, Not Sorry."
David Gate
Yes.
Brian Lee
Which I think is on page 32 and then we can talk about it.
David Gate
Thank you for the page count. Yes. And so this really as a poem fits in with you and your community. So this is called "Sorry, Not Sorry."
"Patiently I watch the cut upon my arm slowly close, then scab forming tender new skin. As I marvel at the magic of it, I remember my healing does not depend on an apology that will never be given."
Brian Lee
There are so many of us in this community that carry harm that we will likely never ever receive an apology for. So I imagine there are stories behind you writing that poem. And so what has he healing looked like for you?
David Gate
So much of it is about being able to believe and trust in your own experiences. And it really doesn't matter if you feel like that abuse or trauma that you've experienced is perceived to have, you know, like the reaction that you're having or the feelings that you felt or the experience you had is, is. Is kind of justified by the depth the really like, you know, it doesn't really matter. There are things that can happen to some individuals that are what most people would think are terrible traumas, but that person does not get overwhelmed by them and does not carry though, you know, an incredible trauma. And there are things that can look minuscule to other people, but like, they can be absolutely devastating to ourselves.
And so really the permission to just say, well, I felt what I felt and I experienced what I experienced is hugely important. There's a quote that I love, which is trauma happens in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so in the absence of an empathetic witness, I have to be the empathetic witness for my own trauma. And so an apology, by and large, you know, and why they're so important. And a real apology is so important because it, it usually makes the. The, the abuser or the person giving. Handing out the trauma or the person that's wronged you or the, you know, that. That other. It can convert them somewhat into an empathetic witness if they are truly sorry.
Brian Lee
Right.
David Gate
And so that's why an apology can be so healing and so helpful is because it turns, you know, where they were not a witness to what happened to you. If they truly see it and, and, and so forth, then an apology can not always, but can help that feeling of an empathetic witness. Right.
Or, you know, at least the acknowledgement of a trauma can be really helpful, certainly within, you know, particularly church and religious environments. You're not going to get that from a leader or from a pastor or from a denomination or from whoever. And so you have to be the empathetic witness for yourself. And often you can find that in a. That's what therapy is. A lot of the time it's like, you know, you. The validation of your experiences from a therapist can be hugely healing and supportive. And obviously you get that in close relationships too.
But you also have to provide that for yourself. Like you have to be the empathetic witness. So that's kind of, you know, what I tried to distill into a tiny little, tiny little poem about the cut of my arm and xcabs and healing. I think I do it better in the book than I do it. It's in my explanation. But like, yes, that's, that's kind of what all the thought and experience that goes behind, you know, what, you know, seven or eight lines is, I guess, the task of the poet.
Brian Lee
Isn't that the beauty of poetry, that it's just distilled into that little thing that expands into such a personal experience for each reader that comes across it and engages with it. I love that. I love that you write about embodied responses and paying attention. There's the poem, "The Wisdom of the Chronic," which we will let people get the book and read for themselves. I love the exploration of nakedness and vulnerability in the poem "Let Me Give You a Minute."
David Gate
Yep.
Brian Lee
I mean, there's so much. We could talk for hours about all of those things, but again, just distilled into just a couple of lines. To understand the experience of what does it look like to be an empathetic witness for myself if I don't have someone else around to listen to me is so important. And so again, just helpful for people who are trying to process through this in a way that maybe they need to engage something different than what they've been doing.
If therapy hasn't been working for you for some reason, if reading all the intellectual books about trauma hasn't been helping for you, I strongly encourage you to go get David's book A Rebellion of Care. I again, I highlighted, I think half of it and people are always horrified that I highlight my books. But it's like how else are we going to remember what I'm doing? And it's like I want to flip it and quickly find this.
David Gate
I love, I love going through with a pencil or maybe a highlighter and I'll highlight anything. I don't. It's for me, exists for me.
Brian Lee
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Let's talk about brokenness and repair. Because I think so many of us see, see ourselves as broken. And I know I thought of myself, I introduced myself that way for years. Hi, I'm Brian. I'm broken. Hi, I'm Brian. I'm damaged goods. I love the way that you reframe that thought in "Prisms."
David Gate
So this is in the chapter about friendship and yeah, this is called "Prisms."
"As we share the stories of how we have been shattered, Light passes through the pieces, fractured into prisms. We see each other clearer and more beautiful than if we had never been broken at all."
Brian Lee
I never would have considered brokenness in that kind of a way.
David Gate
Yeah, it's that feeling of brokenness can be so debilitating, I think, you know, feeling that I am a mess, I am broken. But what we have to understand is like that it actually reveals the beauty of who we are more clearer than any kind of perfection ever could or any kind of presented togetherness ever could. You know, it really, you know, like one of the things I kind of really dislike in art is, is perfection. Like I drawn to in music. I am drawn to fuzzed out guitars on amps that are breaking. And I like notes that slur and I like things that are slightly out of tune and like I really don't like in general the kind of auto tune pop world that surrounds us in every consumer location in this day and age. And so I, I'm drawn to the kind of imperfections in art. They bring out what's true. And, and I think that we can view that in ourselves as well, that USA and imperfections or brokenness or messiness actually brings out the. The real beauty and truth of who we are.
Brian Lee
Well, I think, you know, one of the visual themes that I use throughout our stuff is that idea of kintsugi. But I recognize as I look back at it, it's like even that is based on the concept of repair versus, I think what I so appreciate about what you did with prisms, it's like, no, no, no. It stays fractured and because of that we see each other more clearly. That it doesn't have to be, you know, cool quote, be fixed or put back together again and it makes it more beautiful.
David Gate
And like, there's the Japanese practice of wabi sabi where, you know, I'm. It's kind of a little cliched. Now you. I imagine most of your listeners have seen it in some regard when a pot gets broken and they fill in the gaps with gold, it's a beautiful picture. But also there's an underlying philosophical insistence that it, it has to be repaired. And you know, rather than, like, I would still say that the shards themselves are still beautiful. Like, it doesn't need gold to. To glue it together, even though that makes a whole new thing. And obviously there are some things in and of ourselves that they do get healed and do get repaired and do get realigned in really positive ways. But like, the goal isn't repair, realignment, being perfect again. Right. Like, it's truth and honesty and beauty, I think are far more important values in that regard.
Brian Lee
Yeah, I love that. I just did an interview the other day with some new friends who were talking about masculinity. And I love that you have a whole chapter. I must also feel it as a man.
David Gate
Yep.
Brian Lee
And so part, I think a part of the essay is "to strive for my own emotional competence or emotional honesty has felt as rebellious as anything I've done in my life." What in the world does emotional competence look like to you?
David Gate
So I really try to avoid the phrase emotional intelligence, because that's a very well worn phrase. And. And so in the kind of like church world that I existed in, there are a number of leaders that would talk all the time about emotional intelligence. Right. Like being a leader who had emotional intelligence. What they meant by that, by and large, was to be intelligent about other people's emotions, which really meant how to manage, manipulate, control. There it is the most, the emotions of other people. So I kind of have really stayed away from that term emotional intelligence. Because I'm not really talking about other people. I'm talking about my own emotional competency and my own emotional awareness. And so, yes, so what I mean by that is to be really aware and mindful of my emotional state in any given moment. What is going on? What are the factors that are affecting that? Which maybe is something as simple as I need to eat, or it may be something far more complex, like I have been triggered by something and understanding all those things, observing all of those things, naming all of those things and then watching as they change because they do change, they inevitably, I think I use the image of a bird that, that lands on your porch and then flies away.
My job then is to te— you know, to choose what am I going to feed. Like which of these birds that land on my porch am I going to feed, which of these emotions am I going to tend to? And all of them deserve something. All of them deserve an attention and naming. But there are some that I'm really going to put out the bird feed for and I want to keep and I want, and I want to give a lot of attention to. And there's some that I know that I can just let fly away and that they will fly away and I'm sure they will return in the future.
But having that kind of emotional awareness then really helps me understand the decisions I'm making and why the choices I'm making and why. How that emotional state affects my values, affects my relationship, affects my work. But that kind of self honesty, I think is really difficult for every human being. And so, you know, the chapter is broadly about what it has been like for me and what it's like for a man. But really almost all the poems in that chapter are applicable to emotional awareness for everyone. But through the lens of, you know, how it's been for me and particularly how difficult it is for men in, in our society to be emotionally honest.
Brian Lee
Yeah. Yeah. Was it your friend Lindsay that did your fun, snarky endorsement.
David Gate
Yes.
Brian Lee
A man can write poetry too.
David Gate
Yeah.
Brian Lee
Which I loved.
David Gate
I, I really wanted to put it on the back cover and one of her quotes did go on the back cover. But I really wanted to have like, there's, Jen Hatmaker's written a really lovely quote for me and I wanted that one. And then underneath for Lindsay to say, "This book convinced me that men can also write poetry," which isn't technically true because, you know, men have been writing poetry for a long time, very successfully. It's just mainly gay men like it's just mainly queer men throughout the centuries who have done really well at writing poetry. It's, it's. And here you are and here I am.
Brian Lee
I find it. I don't know if ironic is the right word, but so many of those same leaders who would tout emotional intelligence are often the ones who are deeply self unaware or self ignorant. And I love that you pointed out that they use the intelligence of others to manage and manipulate and all of these things. Adam Young writes about this idea that we are capable of both empathy and compassion and use. You can have one without the other because that's exactly how a bully operates is. They have high empathy because they can read your feelings, but then they use it to twist and manipulate and demean you.
Right. Yeah.
He also writes about finding ways to name and bless our desires. And I notice you write a lot about noticing and naming and honoring desires throughout the book.
David Gate
I think that's one of the, if I was to name something that was totally lacking in both my cultural upbringing and my spiritual religious upbringing, it was an appropriate understanding of desire and want. And I think that was always repressed and or ridiculed really in it at every step. Like, and particularly in Britain. Like it's, you know, there is a sense that like, oh, you have a dream in America, you can go out and make that dream happen.
Like there, there is more of that, a sense of that here. But like certainly most of your desires are caused to be repressed or kept inside or ignored totally. And, and I think that's really unhealthy. I think they inevitably pop out in ways that are often unhealthy. And so, yeah, I took a lot about desire because I'm really. I talk a lot about noticing and recognizing and naming our desires because it's something that I was so bad at and, and the world I was given was really terrible.
Brian Lee
Yeah. Yeah. I'm doing that same work and hoping someday to harvest the fruit of that labor.
David Gate
Right. Yeah.
Brian Lee
Would you humor us by reading one last one as we close out?
David Gate
Yeah, sure.
Brian Lee
"Of A Rainbow" on 187.
David Gate
Yes. So this is called "Of A Rainbow."
"To marvel at the vibrant arc of a rainbow does not diminish the devastation of a flood. It is simply a sign we made it through."
Brian Lee
Thank you for giving people the permission to hold the tension of both beauty and utter devastation at the same time.
David Gate
Yeah. I don't think there's any other life. I think that's the life we, we all have. And so I hope it does Give permission. I hope it shows us or helps people really live in all of that reality. Messy, good, Beautiful, Devastating, painful. Yeah.
Brian Lee
Thank you.
David Gate
That's what I've tried to do, I think.
Brian Lee
You've done it marvelously. There are 30 other questions that I will not get to ask you today, other than to say, everyone, go get your copy of A Rebellion of Care: Poems and Essays by David Gate. If people are looking for you or your work, where can they find or connect with you online?
David Gate
If you're looking for the book, I would love it if you bought it from your local indie store. I'm such a huge fan of independent bookstores. So please get it from your local one and order it into your local one if they don't have it. If you would like to a signed copy, you can buy it from my local indie store, which is called Malaprop's in Asheville. And they're doing signed copies. You can find me on Instagram. That's kind of like the, the kind of doorway into most of what I do and where I spend most of my time online. And that's @davidgatepoet. I have my weekly substack newsletter that goes out, which is davidgate on Substack. And I have a website where you can buy the prints for pretty much all the poems I've put online, plus some stickers and some other design prints. And I hand type on a typewriter these poems for you and I sign them and they're really cool, unique little things that you can put in your home or give to others. Really sweet little gift. And you can get those from my website, which is davidgatepoet.com so that's all the ways you can kind of find me out.
Brian Lee
I have a few. We've given them away as gifts. Yeah, we'll have the links for everything in the show. Notes. We will also link to, I think you said Mallow props. And then bookshop.org is a lovely one that supports independent bookstore. So we'll link to that as well to people who are looking for it somewhere else. David, thank you so much for being with us.
David Gate
Such a pleasure.
Brian Lee
This has been a delight.
David Gate
Yes. I'm glad we got to do it again for a second time. And I hope this is not my last time here. Like I, I, I love our conversations. Thank you.
Brian Lee
Me too. Thanks, David.
I love deep conversations like that. If you enjoyed it as much as I did, be sure to follow David and say thanks for being on the show. You can find links and all the things in the Show Notes. Coming up on the show we have Zach Lambert, Monica DiCristina, Ben Cremer, Dr. Arielle Schwartz, and so many more. Next time we'll be talking with Becky Castle Miller about not being in trouble as adults and the difference between feelings and emotions. Subscribe or follow the show to get new episodes automatically. If you enjoyed this episode, please please leave us a rating and review or share with your friends. It really helps us to grow and continue providing quality content for you.
And thank you to everyone who makes this show possible through their financial support. We truly couldn't do this work without you. Consider a donation today at the link in the show notes. This episode was hosted and executive produced by me, Brian Lee, editing by Heidi Critz, and post production by Lisa Carnegis. Thanks for taking the time out of your day to listen. I hope it's been helpful. Here's to moving toward healing and wholeness together. I'll see you next time.
Don’t Miss the Next Episode!
Subscribe for free and never miss out on these conversations with old and new friends. Is there a guest you’d like to hear from? Let us know!
Subscribe using your favorite podcast app:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube
Spread the Word. Leave a Rating and Review. It would mean the world if you would leave us a rating and review on Apple or on Spotify or share with your friends.
Broken to Beloved is a 501(c)3 nonprofit that works to provide practical resources for recovery from and safeguarding against spiritual abuse. Our programs like this podcast are made possible in part by the generous donations of our supporters. Consider joining our community of supporters with a gift of $25 today.
As an Amazon and Bookshop.org affiliate, I may make a small commission at no extra cost to you.
